"provided a one-sided account of the Middle East conflict"

"middle east conflict"??? What, do they mean the Zionist's invasion and occupation of palestinian lands??? Calling the ZIonist's bloodsoaked murderous theft of the Palestinian's homeland the "middle east conflict" gives the impression that the "conflict" just happened without ZIonists chosing to become murderous thieves of palestinian lands. What? Do you really think palestinians wanted ZIonists invading thier homeland??? Zionists forced thier war of conquest onto thier chosen victims.

"Distorted history"???

Palestine plus Zionist invadors equals "Israel" plus dead palestinians plus Palestinian refugees. It doesn't take a rocket scientists.

Oooh, and featured documented anti-semites as lecturers!!! Well, if that doesn't give ZIonists a birthright to steal palestinian lands and murder the palestinians who dare to resist the Zionists theft of palestinian lands as well as palestinians the ZIonist invadors decided were in the wrong place, then I guess nothing would give ZIonists a birthright of murderous theft of palestinian lands.

Mother are crying in S'derot.

Says 1 of those signs. I guess Zionists don't like the hostilities that thier chosen war of conquest created. Looks like being murderous thieves of palestinian lands wasn't such a hot shit idea after all.

Mothers were crying in Dresden. Whole wagon trains of men women and children being scalped cause mother to cry too. The mother's crying didn't change the nature of those conflicts either.

It is easier to care about the German mothers in Dresden crying because they were living in a dictatorship that didn't aloow those mothers any say in wether or not Germany would be murderous thieves of Polish etc lands. Zionists chose to be murderous thieves of palestinian lands and they have noone to blame but themselves for sacrificing thier own children for conquest.

peace needs a partner

But Zionist occupation of palestinian lands is no more equatable to PEACE than Nazi occupation of Denmark war. Zionist occupation of palestine is a state of war. And war needs partners. Don't be one.

Sabeel (“The Way” in Arabic) is a Christian organization based in East Jerusalem that calls for the elimination of the State of Israel. Perverting the Latin American doctrine of “Liberation Theology” into Arab Nationalism, Sabeel tries to undermine Christian support for Israel by demonizing the world’s only Jewish state. Sabeel founder Naim Ateek rejects Israel’s right to exist and often uses anti-Semitic statements to describe both Israel and Jews in general. They promote boycotts of Israel and bolster their claims in sessions with extremist speakers presenting wild claims.

Sabeel discounts the well documented persecution of Christians at the hands of Muslims not only in the Palestinian Territories but in the Muslim world at large. This is no surprise as they also only recognize anti-Semitism as being a feature of “the West” with no regard to the longstanding second-class status of Jews in Arab countries and the almost complete ethnic cleansing of nearly one million Jews from the Arab world.

Sabeel prominently promotes the so called “Right of Return” of Arabs and all their descendants to present day Israel based on an interpretation of one paragraph of UN General Assembly resolution 194. In Naim Ateek’s own words, “the Jews would eventually become a minority in the country” thus leading to the end of the world’s only Jewish state. Ateek sees a time when conditions “for Jews in Israel would for one reason or another, become unbearable” so that they would “voluntarily” leave Israel. In other words, Ateek endorses ethnic cleansing.

israel.indymedia.org/newswire/rate/7357/index.php

some interesting history of sabeel at a different IMC

From Bay Area in Women in Black

We would like to clear up the deliberately created confusion about Women in Black at the Sabeel Conference in Berkeley on August 18, 2007. Bay Area Women in Black held no vigil outside the conference nor did any other known or established Women in Black group. The people in the photo posted on Boston Indymedia's site on August 29, 2007 calling themselves "Oakland Women in Black" are actually members of the San Francisco Voice for Israel, who describe themselves as "a grass roots community based organization that takes to the streets to respond to enemies of Israel in the San Francisco Bay Area." They have counter-demonstrated against Bay Area Women in Black for the last four years and use tactics such as producing flyers intended to look like ours to confuse passersby and create disinformation at our weekly vigils. They also try to intimidate people participating in BAWIB vigils by aggressively taking their photo, breaking into picket lines, verbal harassment, etc.

Their intolerance of views critical of the Israeli Occupation and
their aggressive tactics are intended to confuse, misinform,
deceive, and silence others.

We do vigil weekly in Oakland, CA and would love you join us if you are in the area. Check out www.bayareawomeninblack.org for more information

Bay Area Women in Black

"ethnic cleansing"???????

And when Oscar Schindler and other Nazis were driven out of Poland, was that also ethnic cleansing becuase the Nazi occupiers were Germans?

Was Saladin's forces driving Christian crusaders out of the land also ethnic cleansing??? The locals didn't much like the murderous thieving allegedly Christian crusader's war of conquest either.

Ethnic cleansing??? Well, it sure as hell isn't the Palestinian's fault that the MURDEROUS THIEVES occupying the Palestinian's homeland are Jews, just as it wasn't the Poles fault that the Nazis occupying Poland were germans.

If there is a way to liberate Palestine from the MURDEROUS THIEVING Zionist crusaders without driving the MURDEROUS THIEVING Zionist crusaders out of Palestine, then lets hear it.

Could these shills really believe thier own rant? Or are they just parroting out the ZIonist propaganda that thier own prejudices aided in thier acceptance.

Typically, they want you to focus on other people's faults, not their own. It's a trick. Don't fall for it.

Besides, if “they do it, too” were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing those six million Jews, because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians.

Women in Black protested the Sabeel conference because of Sabeel's advocacy of racism and ethnic cleansing, that same way Women in Black have protested other groups that advocate ethnic cleansing. Why don't some people get it? Its pretty simple.

Women in Black protested the Sabeel conference because of Sabeel's advocacy of racism and ethnic cleansing, that same way Women in Black have protested other groups that advocate ethnic cleansing. Why don't some people get it? Its pretty simple.

well, it sure seems they believe thier rant

atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/

A unique and interesting perspective.

kaplanwatch.blogspot.com/

"A combination of Arab petrodollars, Marxist zeal and good old-fashioned anti-Semitism will be on hand at Sabeel's conference in Berkeley this weekend.

What is Sabeel? It's the PLO's answer to Christian loyalty to scripture and the land of Israel.

Some of Sabeel's nonsense includes the idea that Jesus was not a Jew but a Palestinian Arab, despite the fact even the term "Palestine" was not invented until long after Jesus's death. Sabeel acolytes claim they seek a two state solution for peace in fundraisers, the same as any other ISM group, but in private
they call for a single state with the Jews under Arab rule."

Any pro-Sabeel bloggers?

Too respect the Palestinian's basc human right NOT to be destroyed to ANY extent by murderous thieving Zionist crusaders gets you branded as an anti-semetic Jew hater.

And I suppose England and France respecting the Poles basic human right not to be destroyed by NAZIs made England and France anti-German Aryan haters.

Ohhh, so it has nothing to do with the offenses of murderous thieves, but WHO those murderous thieves happen to be.

Thanks! WE know where you are coming from now.

The Sabeel Conference is racist in that it only presents an inaccurate Palestinian "narrative" and only condemns Israel without any balance, analysis or in fact, accuracy. They deserve to be protested as racist. Why sould Arab racism get an automatic "pass" by anti-racist organizations?

There you go again. You brand them and me) as a racist. And then attack the lable you gave to us.

pathetic is as pathetic does.

And I am not just providing the "palestinian narative". I am trashing the ZIonist's lies and rationalizations as crap.

Anything but talk about the Sabeel conference's racist ethnic cleansing agenda.

Israel's racist ethnic cleansing agenda.

Israel's racist ethnic cleansing agenda.

For the reading impaired:
Sabeel is the only group espousing ethnic cleansing

Sabeel prominently promotes the so called “Right of Return” of Arabs and all their descendants to present day Israel based on an interpretation of one paragraph of UN General Assembly resolution 194. In Naim Ateek’s own words, “the Jews would eventually become a minority in the country” thus leading to the end of the world’s only Jewish state. Ateek sees a time when conditions “for Jews in Israel would for one reason or another, become unbearable” so that they would “voluntarily” leave Israel. In other words, Ateek endorses ethnic cleansing.

The only difference between a "Jewish state" and an "Aryan state" is the name of the favored ethnic group.

A racist is a racist is a racist. Down with them all.

Think this loser has any objection to 56 Muslim states?
Why does he object to one Jewish state?
I can guess why.

Morroco being mostly muslim doesn't give Zionists a right to steal Palestinian lands and MURDER the Palestinian's who DARE to resist the Zionist theft of Palestinian lands. Kuwait being Muslim doesn't give Zionists any birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian lands.

There are quite a few "christian" states too. Would Italy bing "christian" give Zionists a right to steal Costa Rican lands and MURDER the Costa RIcans who dared to resist a Zionist invasion of Costa Rican lands??? WOuld Norway being a "christian' state give Zionists a birthright of murderous theft of Costa Rican lands???

What a pathetic rationalization. Because there are 56 Muslim states, Zionists and thier enalbers suggest that makes the Zionist's invasion and occupation of palestinian lands somehow less of an offense. Typical.

If you would chose to be an appeaser or an enabler of the Zionist crusader's bloodsoaked war of conquest against palestinian lands JUST BECAUSE Zionists call themselves "Jews", then you are only showcasing your own offensive prejudices.

bet they were engaged in some anti-Israel ritual

Sabeel= racism

The Sabeel conference has a long history of racism and anti-Semitism. All this talk about Women in Black's protest is a red herring to distract from sabeel's program of ethnic cleansing the Jews out of their ancient home land. Don't fall for it.

www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/006846.shtml

To: Rabbi Aaron Sherman and the Congregation of Temple Judah From: the Dept. of Philosophy and Religion of Coe College [As issued by Prof. John Lemos, Chair] Date: Oct., 21, 2005
Re: The Sabeel Conference

"The Dept. of Philosophy and Religion at Coe is aware that some anti-Semitic remarks were made at the recent Sabeel Conference held on our campus and which our department sponsored. We are also aware that there were other breaches of civility during the conference."

This is all mennt to distract from a discussion of sabeel. Don't fall for it.

Where are the apologies for all the insults to Arabs we hear from the racists on this site?

Oh, wait. Now I remember. They're not sorry. They LIKE being racists. It gives them a sense of belonging.

Anti-zionism is Racism in that it seeks to deny the Jewish people the right of national self detemination in their ancestral homeland accorded to other peoples without question. It is also racist to deny the Jewish people "peoplehood." Both were within the discussion at Sabeel. This is typically done by distorting history and re-casting the descendants of the Arab conquerors and really, Arab immigrant laborers first as the indigeneous Phillistines, and when that didn't pan out, now ,and with no basis whatsoever, as the Phoenicians.

"the right of national self determination"?

Sure, like the right to national self determination includes a right to steal palestinian lands and murder the Palestinians who dared to resist the ZIonist's theft of Palestinian lands. The Nazis right to national self determination didn't incluide a birthright of murderous theft of other people's homelands EITHER.

"their anscestrla homeland"

Sure, like Hebrews slaughtering and enslaving the Canaanite tribes to rule the land 3000 years ago makes Palestine a Jewish homeland and gives Zionists a birthright of murderous theft of palestinian lands. palestine is not even a Judean homeland, much less a Jewish homeland, wich obviously includes Ashkinazim Khazars from central Asia who's anscestors converted to judaism.

Allegedly Christian crusaders said the same crap, because the East ROman Byzantine occupiers were once Christians, French and English and Dutch etc crusaders called the land a Christian homeland to rationalize their murderous theft of the land. Now it is Khazar Ashkinazim converts who push the same BS rationalization the allegedly Christian crusaders pushed on weak minded folks.

And Palestinians are not Arabs. After Arab Muslims drove the East roman Byzantine occupiers out, the Arab Muslims left Palestine to kick the East Roman occupiers out of Lebanon, Syria, etc. In lands Muslims drove the East Roman occupiers out, Arab Muslims offered the enslaved locals a choice, convert to Islam of remain a slave to the local Christians (yep, like anyone thinks the local "ARABs" of Palestine, lebanon etc converted to Christianity).

Arabs left people to rule the lands and the newly freed ex-slave converts to Islam supported Arab rulers because they didn't want the Romans returning them to slavery. And after 200 years, the locals of Palestinian lands adopted Arabic as their own language. I got news for you, the ONLY Arabs who need to learn how to speek Arabic are babies. DUH!

Genetics shows that palestinians share the genetics of Shepardic Jews of Africa and the Middle east. And that they do NOT share the genetics of Arabs just as Lebanese don't and iraqis don't and Syrians don't. They are all distinctly differant peoples. But the only way Palestinians could share the genetics of Shepardic Jews (something the Khazr Ashkinazim can't say) is if the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanite slave girls who were raped by Hebrew masters OR if the Palestinians are the lost tribes of Israel returned with "sleep in their eyes and knowing NOT of their past" OR a combination of the 2.

(1.) National self determination is not a right.

(2.) Self determination by ethnic groups is racist by definition.

Sabeel Conference in Berkeley this weekend

A combination of Arab petrodollars, Marxist zeal and good old-fashioned anti-Semitism will be on hand at Sabeel's conference in Berkeley this weekend.

kaplanwatch.blogspot.com/2007/08/sabeel-conference-in-berkeley-this.html

It's all, in fact, another ruse to promote anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism in US churches. If you research the speakers, they are all pan-Arabists or Marxists who have always advocated destroying Israel. More later...

Maybe Lee will tell us how that, if it were true, would give ZIonists a birthright of murderous theft of ANY palestinian lands.

I would not bet on it.

What palestinian lands?
They've already got Jordan.
Damn- they are greedy. they want it all, and they want it Jew-free.

What does that mean? "they've already got Jordan"???

What? Are you suggesting that palestinian refugees of the Zionist crusader's war of conquest fleeing to Jordan means Zionists are something other than murderous thieves of palestinian lands???

Palestine is part of the fertile cresent. Jordan is deswert. Who could suggest that Palestinian refugees fleeing to mostly desert Jordan makes up for the loss Palestinians suffered when ZIonists became murderous thieves of Palestinian farms and orchards and graizing lands???

Do you really think/feel you are making an actual point??? Just how stupid do you think people in Baltimor are???

Ohhh, why are the cherokee complaining about their fertile lands being stolen. They got barren reservations out west that they have to share with the people already living there.

Please, write something else that is mind numbingly stupid for me to trash.

"they want it all"

All what? All of thier own homeland???

And they want it free of the murderous thieving Zionist crusaders???

And that somehow makes them greedy???

Well, can I take a big bit out of your bank account??? No??? Your being kind of greedy, aren't you.

Sabeel (“The Way” in Arabic) is a Christian organization based in East Jerusalem that calls for the elimination of the State of Israel. Perverting the Latin American doctrine of “Liberation Theology” into Arab Nationalism, Sabeel tries to undermine Christian support for Israel by demonizing the world’s only Jewish state. Sabeel founder Naim Ateek rejects Israel’s right to exist and often uses anti-Semitic statements to describe both Israel and Jews in general. They promote boycotts of Israel and bolster their claims in sessions with extremist speakers presenting wild claims.

>Sabeel founder Naim Ateek rejects Israel’s right to exist

This is the only moral position possible on the issue of the struggle for justice and equality in Occupied Palestine," which includes Israel "proper."

Israel is a product of ethnic cleansing. Ergo, to condone its existence is to condone ethnic cleansing.

The only difference between a Zionist and a Nazi is the name of their favorite ethnic group. A racist is a racist is a racist. Down with them all.

Your logic is that because Israel was born from the ethnic cleansing of the European Jewish community, its existence condones ethnic cleansing?
Au contraire. Its existence is a slap in the face to those seeking to destroy the Jews. Quite the opposite of your supposition

equality for all people, no matter who their mothers were or what name, if any, they use for deity. Equality is the exact opposite of Zionism.

Like their mentors the Nazis vefore them, Zionists believe that their own ethnic group deserves special treatment, and has greater rights to land, water, arms and political power than do other ethnic groups. In other words, it's racism, plain and simple.

The Mufti and the Führer

By Mitchell Bard

In 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini fled to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.

The Mufti sent Hitler 15 drafts of declarations he wanted Germany and Italy to make concerning the Middle East. One called on the two countries to declare the illegality of the Jewish home in Palestine. Furthermore, “they accord to Palestine and to other Arab countries the right to solve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries, in accordance with the interest of the Arabs and, by the same method, that the question is now being settled in the Axis countries.”1

In November 1941, the Mufti met with Hitler, who told him the Jews were his foremost enemy. The Nazi dictator rebuffed the Mufti's requests for a declaration in support of the Arabs, however, telling him the time was not right. The Mufti offered Hitler his “thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear expression in his public speeches....The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely....the Jews....” Hitler replied:

Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine....Germany would furnish positive and practical aid to the Arabs involved in the same struggle....Germany's objective [is]...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere....In that hour the Mufti would be the most authoritative spokesman for the Arab world. The Mufti thanked Hitler profusely.2

In 1945, Yugoslavia sought to indict the Mufti as a war criminal for his role in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers for the SS, who participated in the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary. He escaped from French detention in 1946, however, and continued his fight against the Jews from Cairo and later Beirut. He died in 1974.

The Husseini family continued to play a role in Palestinian affairs, with Faisal Husseini, whose father was the Mufti's nephew, regarded until his death in 2001 as one of their leading spokesmen in the territories.

"fled to Germany"

Odd that such a scapegoating post would admit that the muffti "fled" brittish occupiers who had already killed thousands of Palestinian locals when they tried and failed to stop the Zionists invading under Brittish guns like Hungarians invaded Slovakian lands under Nazi guns.

Yep, AFTER England and Zionists decided to carve a Jewish state out of Palestinian lands, murdering thousands of palestinians who resisted the theft, a small number of palestinians ESCAPED Brittish/Zionist occupied Palestine to fight against those who had already declared war against the locals of Palestine.

Ohhhh, look at him sitting with Hitler. And just how would that make the Zionist's murderous theft of Palestinian lands any less of an offense???

SOME Slovakians escaping Nazi/Hungarian occupied Slovakia to join England in it's war against Hitler wouldn't make the Nazi's invasion of Czechoslovakia and the Hungarian invasion of Slovakia any less of an offense.

But somehow (?, please explain rather than run away run away from your own supposition) a tiny number of Palestinians ESCAPING from occupied Palestinian lands (that England was helping ZIonists invade) to help Nazis fight against the people who already declared war against palestinians and killed thousands of Palestinians is somehow supposed to denigrate the palestinian's basic human right NOT to be destroyed by ZIonist's and their English enablers.

You wrote about 20000 muslims joining hitler AFTER England and France's brutal occupations of many Muslim lands. Do you have the nerve to tells us how many of those Muslims had ESCAPED Brittish/zionist occupied Palestine so we can figure out how TINY the relative percentage of those palestinians were? is it even relavant, since England and Zionists had already declared war against palestinians when they chose to carve a jewish state out of the palestinian's homeland?

And why would the muffi be placed in French detention? that is odd, unless this 1 man's actions durring world war 2 were in France. But then again, 1 Palestinian escaping the war of conquest that England and Zionists chose to force on him and his loved ones isn't going to make the Zionist's chosen war of conquest any less of an offense.

But the muffti is the 1 (ONE) who had his picture taken with Hitler, so ZIonist propagandists use it to push an emotional responce that doesn't require you actualy thinking, just responding. It is a simple tactic used on simple minds.

See:

la.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/160324_comment.php

Read up on the Grand Mufti Al-Husseini and make you own decisions about the Palestinans' leadership, then and now. It wasn't just having his picture taken with Hitler that got him indicted as a Nazi war criminal. Wow, these lying anti-zionists are sure back pedaling once they get caught!

Finland also was allied with hitler. But everyone knows that finalnd was attacked by Soviets and that Finland needed help defedning their homeland. So we cut the Fins some slack, don't we??? We don't try to denigrate the Fins basic human right NOT to be destroyed by foreign invadors, do we???

Nope, a photo of the Finish leaders with hitler couldn't be used marginalize the fin's basic human rights.

But a photo of this mufti guy, does see the Palestinians getting that treatment. So, unless you are going to tell the whole story, rather than just cherry pick photos, it is pretty obvious where the deceptions are comming from.

Israel was founded by terrorists, some of who actively collaborated with Nazis. Oh, yeah, and they blew up innocent civilians.

Did someone say Mufti was indicted because he had his picture taken with hitler? I know I didn't. I just pointed out how Zionist propagandists use the picture to get an emotional responce, rather than an objective understanding.

And of those 20000, how many were Palestinians??? You avoided telling us. Was it 1/10 the number of Palestinians killed by britts even before Hitler invaded Poland??? Was it not even 1/15 the number of Palestinians killed by britts.

As for the mufti, and other Palestinian leaders (excluding the colaborator Abbas), I don't see how he responded any differantly to foreign invadors than the French freedom fighters did. And I bet you can't tell us.

Every single rationalization and lie the ZIonist propagandists present gets trashed and exposed as total dung. And when that happens, the propagandists run away run away from their own suppositions by changing the subject. And that just gives me more oportunities to expose how the Zionist propagandists manipulate the brainwashed masses. ZIonists sure miss the days/daze when their propaganda controled the public's "understanding".

Nope, not the picture that got the mufti in jail. It was because he dared to respond to foriegn offenses just like the french freedom fighters who put him in jail responded.

Well, you can tell us. It wasn't even 1/15 the number of Palestinians killed by the ZIonist's brittish allies, was it????

ISRAEL DISCUSSION AMONG DUTCH PROTESTANTS
Four heavyweights in the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN) have issued an open letter in response to an attack on the ‘verbondenheid’ (connection) and support of the PKN for Israel.

The person who initiated the attack (Henri Veldhuis) was one of the founders of the Dutch branch of 'Friends of Sabeel'.

[Friends of Sabeel is a dangerous pro-Palestinian pan-Christian liberation-theology organization with a vicious anti-Semitic agenda. Among its members are outright supporters of terrorism, and one of the causes they advocate is a general boycott of all Israeli goods, services, institutions, and organizations. They shun Jews in general, but tolerate their house-Jews who disavow support for Israel (such as Women in Black, JVP, and Brit Tzedek).]

The issue will be discussed this November at a synod of the church, which is the second largest denomination in the Netherlands.


THE LETTER WRITERS

Jan Van Der Graaf (general secretary of the Reformed Union, retired) is a good ally to have on one's side. His influence in Reformed Church circles is very wide. And he's no political novice.

Theo Van Campen, one of the others who signed the letter against Sabeel, is a preacher in Zwartebroek. But also an official within the organizational structure of the church.

Doctor Wulfert De Greef is a retired preacher.

Doctor Henk Van Der Meulen is a professor at the Protestant Theological University.

All four are old-guard, established voices within the church. They are not green, and may be said to represent the orthodox point of view.

Among other things, they accuse Veldhuis of wanting to hold the church hostage to "a Palestinian Liberation Theology", which "will not promote peace in the Middle East". This in addition to expressing the fear that his actions, if in any way successful, would damage the church, and ill-serve the Palestinians.
They reject Veldhuis' contention that the church should be connected to the "people of the Torah" (by which Veldhuis means ONLY Jews who live according to Torah) rather than connected to "the people (of) Israel" AND "the people of the Torah" (by which the church means ALL of those who share in the covenant that Hashem gave Abraham).

[Veldhuis' contention, if adopted, would open the gate to Protestants trying to define Jewishness, rather than Jews having a say in the matter. The current stand of the church is to leave definition to the defined.]

They also express surprise that Veldhuis should have repeatedly cast blame at Israel, without even a word about the jewhate-drenched ideology of Hamas, or the increasing anti-Semitism of the Arab world.

[The Church has already taken note of the grave danger from Islam to Muslim converts to Christianity. Their relation with the Jews is closer to the heart of the Church than the (mostly theoretical) modus vivendi with Islam.]


THE SERPENT IN THE BOSSOM

Henri Veldhuis, the Sabeel guy, is a preacher in Culemborg. He's extremely pro-boycott, and must be considered a dangerous man. He has fired back that the four letter-writers are less Biblically sound than reverend Naim Ateek, fuhrer of Sabeel, and that it is impossible to be less connected with and concerned for Palestinian Christians than connected with and concerned for disbelieving or non-practicing Jews. He also states that the connection with Israel is 'unbiblical and ethnically threatening' - by which he seems to imply that Jews are less Jewish than Palestinians (as but one of many possible shades of meaning). He represents a predominantly younger and more radical voice than the majority of the church.


END NOTES

Further to the idea that Dutch reformed church members might differ of opinion with the national synod, it should be mentioned that the organizational structure does not permit them freedom to act contrary to the synod. As long as the national synod supports Israel, the church supports Israel. The Dutch reformed church differs in this aspect markedly from the Presbyterian church.
If members are found to be motivated contrary to the church's ideology, they will be isolated, or they will have no other choice but to split off. There is a certain amount of freedom when it comes to interpretation, none whatsoever when it comes to deviation.

[I am not entirely sure what the current situation is with the PKN, however, as some accommodation was made to be as inclusive as possible. But given the Dutch talent for rigidity, it is unlikely that heresies will be given any leeway. Tzarich iyun.]

Additionally, any major ideological shift in favour of the Palestinian terrorist movements will necessarily cause schisms. There are several other denominations within Dutch Protestantism who would not only dispute the validity of such a move against Israel, but happily absorb any dissidents.

Note that the PKN represents a merger of the country's three largest protestant churches: the merger was supposed to unite. And it did. It also resulted in several split-offs. So instead of three denominations becoming one, they became many. A big denomination and a number of petite denominations and one-church wonders.

One other problem is that anti-Americanism and anti-Israelism are dominant ideologies in Dutch society. This does influence the environment within which the church operates. But given the assault by ultra-left ideologies on the remaining religious communities in the Netherlands, it is not likely that the majority of the church will be as easily swayed by Palestinianist sympathizers as American Presbyterians, who are proving to be a bunch of patsies.

back pedaling???

You can't honestly confront anything I have writen. The best (BEST) you can come up with is to confront what you wished I had writen. And then use that to call me a liar.

Wow! You sure have a deep contempt for the thinking people of Baltimor to so blatantly resort to deceptions as standard procedure.

All three of them like to party it up with me in the bathroom

I stand corrected.

THAT is the BEST they can come up with.

www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2007/09/charles-jacobs-et-tu-tutu/

Most of our parents voted for Stevenson, despised McCarthy and fought racism before the rest of America saw it was the right thing to do. We stood with Martin Luther King and were crushed when he – and John and Bobby Kennedy – were killed. We hated Nixon, boycotted grapes with Caesar Chavez, cheered for Bella and Gloria on women’s rights and defeated apartheid in South Africa.
Like most of America’s Jews, we’re LFBs – Liberals From Birth. Why? Because Jewish and American values are in almost perfect harmony.

On Israel, we were never uncritical, but loyal to the cause of a Jewish homeland and to the Jews who fought to keep it. Not only because we were Jews, but also because tiny beleaguered Israel is, or should be a, liberal cause.

But it’s not. Not now. Many of our friends disagree with us about Israel, and in increasingly disagreeable ways. They got the story wrong, from the media, from academics, and from clergy. Painfully, we see former allies, even heroes of past struggles, attacking the Jewish state – and its supporters: us.

So what will Boston’s Jews do when Desmond Tutu, the anti-apartheid hero who likens Israeli treatment of Arabs to apartheid, headlines an anti-Israel hate-fest at the Old South Church in October? The “Israel Apartheid” Conference is organized by Sabeel, whose leader says Israelis are “crucifying” Arabs like the Jews did Jesus.

The two-day rant against Israel features speakers who pose as human rights activists who care about injustice – yet their concerns are oh so selective. Israel is an “apartheid state,” they say, with an “apartheid wall.” It’s worse for Palestinians than South Africa was for blacks. It’s the world’s worst human rights situation. None of this is close to being true.
Israel’s Arab citizens vote, are elected to the Knesset, and enjoy better health care and education than most Arabs in the region. Yes, Arabs in the territories are treated differently, yet not because of their “race” – but because their leaders are at war with Israel. Israelis don’t act on the basis of race, like white South Africans did. Shame on Desmond Tutu for deliberately ignoring all this.

Calling Israel racist pleases the Sabeel-ites, but has nothing to do with a concern for justice. There is real apartheid in the Middle East – racist apartheid: blacks slaughtered and enslaved by Arabs in Sudan; gender apartheid: women in Saudi Arabia may not drive cars or walk unaccompanied; religious apartheid: churches cannot be built in Saudi Arabia and Jews can’t be citizens in Jordan. It’s not justice these folks are fixated upon, it’s the Jewish state.

Some Boston Jews and LFB’s may have turned away from this conflict. But now it’s time to choose: When Tutu comes, many of us will protest. If the anti-Israel demagogues are led by a black man who led his people to freedom – but who attacks and defames another free people – Israel’s and America’s Jews must decide: Which side will you be on?

www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2007/09/charles-jacobs-et-tu-tutu/

Most of our parents voted for Stevenson, despised McCarthy and fought racism before the rest of America saw it was the right thing to do. We stood with Martin Luther King and were crushed when he – and John and Bobby Kennedy – were killed. We hated Nixon, boycotted grapes with Caesar Chavez, cheered for Bella and Gloria on women’s rights and defeated apartheid in South Africa.
Like most of America’s Jews, we’re LFBs – Liberals From Birth. Why? Because Jewish and American values are in almost perfect harmony.

On Israel, we were never uncritical, but loyal to the cause of a Jewish homeland and to the Jews who fought to keep it. Not only because we were Jews, but also because tiny beleaguered Israel is, or should be a, liberal cause.

But it’s not. Not now. Many of our friends disagree with us about Israel, and in increasingly disagreeable ways. They got the story wrong, from the media, from academics, and from clergy. Painfully, we see former allies, even heroes of past struggles, attacking the Jewish state – and its supporters: us.

So what will Boston’s Jews do when Desmond Tutu, the anti-apartheid hero who likens Israeli treatment of Arabs to apartheid, headlines an anti-Israel hate-fest at the Old South Church in October? The “Israel Apartheid” Conference is organized by Sabeel, whose leader says Israelis are “crucifying” Arabs like the Jews did Jesus.

The two-day rant against Israel features speakers who pose as human rights activists who care about injustice – yet their concerns are oh so selective. Israel is an “apartheid state,” they say, with an “apartheid wall.” It’s worse for Palestinians than South Africa was for blacks. It’s the world’s worst human rights situation. None of this is close to being true.
Israel’s Arab citizens vote, are elected to the Knesset, and enjoy better health care and education than most Arabs in the region. Yes, Arabs in the territories are treated differently, yet not because of their “race” – but because their leaders are at war with Israel. Israelis don’t act on the basis of race, like white South Africans did. Shame on Desmond Tutu for deliberately ignoring all this.

Calling Israel racist pleases the Sabeel-ites, but has nothing to do with a concern for justice. There is real apartheid in the Middle East – racist apartheid: blacks slaughtered and enslaved by Arabs in Sudan; gender apartheid: women in Saudi Arabia may not drive cars or walk unaccompanied; religious apartheid: churches cannot be built in Saudi Arabia and Jews can’t be citizens in Jordan. It’s not justice these folks are fixated upon, it’s the Jewish state.

Some Boston Jews and LFB’s may have turned away from this conflict. But now it’s time to choose: When Tutu comes, many of us will protest. If the anti-Israel demagogues are led by a black man who led his people to freedom – but who attacks and defames another free people – Israel’s and America’s Jews must decide: Which side will you be on?

Notice how Prion Party is posting from the same ip address as Bill White. hmmm.

Its best to ignore his posts.
He is mentally ill, and is not capable of actual dialog.

onegoodmove.org/fallacy/attack.htm

Attacking the Person
(argumentum ad hominem)

Definition:

The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.

There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:
1. ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.
2. ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances.
3. ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practise what he
preaches.

Examples:

1. You may argue that God doesn't exist, but you are just following a fad. (ad hominem abusive)
2. We should discount what Premier Klein says about taxation because he won't be hurt by the increase. (ad hominem circumstantial)
3. We should disregard Share B.C.'s argument because they are being funded by the logging industry. (ad hominem circumstantial)
4. You say I shouldn't drink, but you haven't been sober for more than a year. (ad hominem tu quoque)

Proof:

Identify the attack and show that the character or circumstances of the person has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the proposition being defended.

Heres what really happened

www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

"mentally ill"

And just how pathetic would you have to be if someone who is allegedly "mentally ill" trashes everything you have to write?

The result being that you don't just run away run away from my suppositions, but your own as well.

And notice how my posts always adress things others have posted. That is dialog. Duh. It sure as hell is contradictory to the BS the Zionist enablers post, but that doesn't make it something other than dialog.

YOU on the other hand post Zionist lies and vacant slander like a bill board and attack anyone who "fails" to accept your propaganda.

Transferance-some kind of mental illness??? One you are happy to showcase.

PrionParty=consistantly racist

Zionism=consistantly racist

racist?

And as usual, you are going to fail to show us how anything (ANYTHING!) I wrote could be confused with racism, while I consistantly point out the racism (and worse) that the Zionist enablers employ.

Idolotry of allegations is so pathetic.

PrionParty is consistently racist in that he denies Jews all rights, and always favors the "Palestinians" no matter how egregious the behavior in question.

"denies Jews all rights"

Nope, just their alleged birthright of murderous theft of palestinian lands. As I see it, Hebrews slaughhtering and enslaving the Canaanite tribes is a piss poor pretext for Zionists to also be murderous thieves of the land, even if the Judeo-christian (small c, ask for chapter and verse) dominated 1947 UN attributed to themselves the authority of Satan and gave ZIonists crusaders their blessings for Zionists to be murderous thieves of Palestinian lands.

always favors the Palestinians no matter how egregious the behavior in question

Always respects my palestinian neighbor's basic human right NOT to be destroyed by ZIonist crusaders and always understands that it is the ZIonist's bloodsoaked war of conqeust for Palestinian lands is the cause of the hostilities.

No, I do not scapegoat the palestinians for the hostilities the offense of Zionism created. Just as I do not scapegoat Jews of the warsaw ghetto for tossing molotov cocktails at Germans occupying Poland. Just like Jews of the warsaw ghetto, Palestinians didn't ask for foreign invadors to destroy their lives and lifes. Foreign invadors forced conflict onto them both. So, if either group has a tiny fraction of a percent of their numbers fighting back, it is clearly a reaction created under the extream durres forced on them.

U no, whole wagon trains of white invadors of native American lands got scalpted. But the "egregious" brutality of the scalpings didn't change the dynamics of that conflict either. Facts is, if those white men women and children hadn['t chosen to make themselves a party to the murderous theft of native American lands as ALL Zionists have chosen to be a party to the ZIonist's murderous theft of palestinian lands, then NONE of them wouold have been scalped.

looks like chosing to be a murderous thief of someone else's homeland isn't always such a hot shitt idea after all.

I can see how Zionist occupation of Palestine is a reason to liberate Palestine. Some of you obviouslty think/feel that Zionist occupation of Palestinian lands is a reason to appease and aid the offending party. Can any of you tell us why?

When was it ever "Palestine?" Whats really going on is that the descendants of immigrant Arab laborers from neighboring Arab countries are trying to claim that the imperialist Arab military conquest of Israel in the 7th century gives them the right to evict the indigeneous people, the Jews, from their ancestral land. Our Native American friends will remember that as hard as it was to get a piece of land as a reservation, it was harder to get the White Settlers off of the reservation land too.

People like Zionists, who herd indiginous people onto reservations, *have* no Native American friends.

Hebrews were just one of many foreign invadors. So Palestine is no more a Jewish land than it is an Italian land, or a Greek land, or a Turkish land, or a Brittish land.

Palestinians are not Arabs. After the Arab Muslims drove out the East ROman Byzantine empire, the Arabs left to drive them out of lebanon, and Syria, etc, it took the locals 200 years to adopt Arabic as their own language. The only Arabs who need to learn how to speek Arabic are babies.

Genetics show that Palestinians share the genes of Shepardic Jews of north Africa and the middle east. That is something the Zionist Ashkinazim Khazar coverts to judeaism can't say. ZIonists jst hate it how the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob who are still in the land converted to isla, as much as they hate how some of them converted to Christianity.

Zionists lies push the idea that Palestinians are laborors from other areas. Genetics contradicts that as well as the historic record. Under 400 years of turkish rule, the Palestinian population never got lower that 350000 in 1785. A population density greater that all newly created US states.

Jews in palestine went from 4 1/2 percent when Brittish rule started to 45 percent when Britts left. But ZIonists push the mathimativly imposible rant that palestinians arrived later.

When was there ever "Palestine"? WHen was there ever a Brittain? Brittain is just a made up word that comes from the name Roman invadors gave to the island. brittania. Even the name "England" comes from the Germanic invadors of East Anglia. is there no such thing as English/Brittish people because the name they chose for themselves is made up???

ZIonist lies sure are easy to trash.

Hebrew invadors once ruled the land and there was a Jewish minority living in Palestine, so IZonists claim that as a birtyhright of murderous theft of palestinian lands.

Does that sound familiar? Germans made the same rationalizations when they invaded Czechoslovakia. Germans once ruled bohemia and Moravia in the holy roman empire and there was a german minority living in the sudaten mountains.

ZIonists share the moral ethics of nazis when they try to rationalize their bloodsoaked war of conquest. But what is odd is that people who have no problem understanding how full of shitt the Nazis were to invade Czech lands, out of the other side of their faces, they push the same dung to rationalize the offense of ZIonism.

Interesting analogy, German people,(muchlike Arab people) left their places of origin and settled elsewhere, the Germans in the Czech Sudetenlandt, and the Arabs in the Jewish homeland. When the Germans from Germany later invaded (just like Arabs from outside of Pre-state Israel invaded the newly declared state) the Germans in the Sudetenlandt sided with the incoming German armies (just like the Arabs of Pre-state Israel sided with the invading Arab armies). When Germany lost the war, the Czechs expelled all of the Sudetenlandt Germans. There is no "right of return", no reparations, no one making excuses for terrorism. So, are why do Arabs beleive tha tthey are entitled to special privileges that no one else is entitled too?

Palstinians are still not Arabs.

Arab muslims drove the east roman byzantines out of the land and then the Arab muslims left to drive East roman Byzantines out of lebanon and Syria, etc.

It took the locals of palestine 200 years to adopt Arabic as their own language. And the ONLY Arabs whop need to learn how to speek Arabic are babies.

Genetics shows that Palestinians share the geneticas of the Shephardic Jews of north africa and the middle east. Clearly, Palestinians have been in the land at least as long as the Hebrew invadors. They are a mixture of many peoples like England is a mizture of Celts, Saxons Angals, Jutes, Normans. Palestinians are a mixture of Canaanites, Hebrews, Greeks, Romans, Turks, even english soldiers visited brothels to add their genetics to the mix.

Your claim that Palestine is a Jewish land is just a lie. Hebrews were just one of many foriegn invadors. Zionist ashkinazim are khazar converts to Judaism. Their "return" to the land would be more comparable to French converts to christianity becoming crussaders claiming that because East ROman Byzantines once occupied the land and were for a while Christians, that the land is a Christian homeland, so they were not realy invadors. But they were still atacking the locals , no matter that many of the locals had converted to Islam.

No, many Palestinian locals converting to Islam does not make them Arabs any more than those converting to Christianity would make them east roman Byzantines.

But you go ahead and write a bunch of crap. I am sure there are people stupid or prejudiced enough to buy into your deceptions.

Nope. palestinians are not Arabs.

Arab Muslim had a practice of when they took controle of a land, they would offer the slaves in that land a choice. Convert to Islam, or remain a slave. After about a milli seconds thought on the offer, the peoples enslaved by East ROman masters converted en mass. Eventualy, they adopted Arabic as their language.

So where did all the "Arab" Chtristians come from??? We all know that in Muslim ruled lands, Muslims converting to Christianity is a capital offense and would just get them killed by the rulers. So, are those Arab Christians really Arabs? No. Are all those "Arab" Muslims really Arabs? History of local language and genetics shows they are not. They are as local to their lands as Brittish people are locals of England.

yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2007/10/desecrating-boston-church-more-on.html

Hate at the altar

By Dexter Van Zile | October 25, 2007

IF A church in Boston announced that it was renting space to a self-described peace group whose leader hung nooses from trees in former slave-holding states, the interfaith community would be outraged, the church would be condemned, and the wisdom of its pastor and governing council would be called into question, with good reason.
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Any organization led by someone who would display an image with such a bloody and violent history would immediately be repudiated by people of good will. Virtually everyone knows that a noose hanging from a tree is a prelude to a lynching. Its display is a vile act intended to intimidate African-Americans and other minorities into submission. It is a vestige of the Old South that has been discarded by all but the irredeemably racist.

Sadly, Old South Church in downtown Boston is playing host to just such a group this weekend - with one slight difference. Instead of displaying a noose during a time of racial tension, the leader of the group in question - the Rev. Dr. Naim Ateek, founder of Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center - invoked the anti-Semitic trope of Jews as Christ-killers during the second intifada, when Palestinian suicide bombers were murdering citizens of Israel.

The portrayal of Jews as Christ-killers has contributed to untold violence and hostility toward the Jewish people, but for some reason, Old South Church is allowing Sabeel and Ateek, an Anglican priest from Jerusalem, the use of its worship space.

For the past three decades, Sabeel has billed itself as the voice of the beleaguered community of Palestinian Christians in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Israel. Over the years, Sabeel has been successful in convincing well-meaning, but largely ignorant Christians in the United States and Europe that the Palestinian people are innocent sufferers and the Israeli government their brutal oppressors.

The centerpiece of this effort can be seen in the hostile rhetoric of Ateek. For example, his 2000 Christmas message portrayed Israeli officials as Herod, who, according to the Christian gospel, murdered all the infants of Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the infant Jesus. In his 2001 Easter message, Ateek wrote, "The Israeli government crucifixion system is operating daily" and that "Palestine has become the place of the skull." And in February 2001, Ateek compared the Israeli occupation to the stone blocking Christ's tomb.

With these three images, Ateek has figuratively blamed Israel for the attempted murder of the infant Jesus, the crucifixion of Jesus the prophet, and for blocking the resurrection of Christ the Savior.

In the context of Christian-Jewish relations, language like this - which has preceded and justified the killing of Jews for nearly two millennia - is the equivalent of a noose hanging from a tree in the Old South. Its use during a time of violence can only serve to justify continued violence against Israeli civilians. Sadly, Ateek's defenders have said that he is merely using the "language of the cross" to describe Palestinian suffering, but in fact, he is describing Israeli behavior.

Taken to its logical end, language like this suggests that the only solution to Palestinian suffering is Israel's elimination, which Sabeel called for in a 2004 document that stated the organization's "vision for the future" is "one-state for two nations and three religions."

To make matters worse, Ateek has invoked the notion of the wandering, defenseless Jew as a good thing by writing that Jewish statehood contradicts the Jewish call to suffer. This type of language has been regarded as taboo by responsible Christians since the Holocaust, and its reemergence in Ateek's writing is as ominous as a noose hanging from a tree.

This is not peacemaking; it is demonization. Such language might have been tolerable in the Old South, but not today.

Not in Boston's Old South.

www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/10/25/hate_at_the_altar/

What you do to the least of God's children, you do to Christ, is what the Christ said.

Any real Christians would see the murderous thieving Zionist crusaders as Christ killers.

If anything, it is the Zionist's murderous theft of Palestinian lands that would justify the Palestinian freedom fighters killing Zionists occupyingthe Palestinian's homeland.

The blood of Palestinians will never wash away the blood of Jews that stains some (very few) Christian hands. Cover it up, maybe. But wash it off, NEVER. Deal with the FACT that real Christians would treat our Palestinian neighbors as we would have them treating us.

The palestinians from Caesarea are from bosnia:

The modern settlement of Caesarea began in 1884, when Muslims from Bosnia built a small fishing village on the ruins of the Crusader fortress on the coast. Between the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth century, Baron Edmond James de Rothschild purchased much of the land around Caesarea
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea,

So, are their descendants also "indigeneous" to Israel? The vast majority of the ancestry of todays "Palestinians" is from elsewhere and within historic times. No, they're not the descendants of "lost Jews or Christians" either, thats been disproven. Thats why its called "Jewish history"but the "Palestinian NARRATIVE".

So the palestinians have their origin in Bosnia, and then sold this particular strip of land to the Jews.
Don't hear about this in the mainstream media

If Americans want to let Cubans move to the US, then that is THEIR business and NOONE else's. If Americans do not want mexicans moving to the US, that is also THEIR business and NOONE else's.

But who's busniess is it if Palestinians accept Bosnians into palestinians society? According to ZIonists and their enablers, it is the ZIonist's and their enabler's business as they try to use it to marginalize the palestinian's basic human right NOT to be destroyed by murderous thieving ZIonist crusaders.

Zionist shills sure are full of it.

But who's busniess is it if Palestinians accept Bosnians into palestinians society?

It just means that many of the Palestinian people who call themselves the "indigeneous people " of the land are recent immigrants from Europe.

And many "Americans" (also a made up word) are from mexico. that doesn't give Zionists a birthright to steal "American" lands and murder the "Americans" who would dare to resist a Zionist invasion of "America".

And seeing as how the Palestinians accepted those Bosnian implants into Palestinian society, it is hardly anyone else's business. But a big differance between Bosnians joining Palestinian society and ZIonist crusaders invading the land, the bosnians did not steal Palestinian lands and MURDER palestinians who dared to resist the ZIonist invasion. European "Jews" were also accepted into Palestinian society. But the ZIonists made their offensive plands to carve a "Jewish" state out of Palestinian lands clear for all to see.

if mexicans were openly declairing a plan to carve a new Mexican state out of New Mexico, those minute men guys would have many more Americans joining and supporting them. Some Mexican "Americans" might even be joining or at least supporting them to prevent a mexican invasion of "America". Many palestinians Jews were against the Ashkinazim invasion and openly protested the central Asian Ashkinazim Khazars invasion.

And Mexican "Americans" who aided a Mexican invasion would be enemies to ALL Americans, even the mexican "Americans" who opposed a Mexican invasion.

Yet Israel remains the most diverse and vibrant democracy in the area. I guess its a testement to the inefficiency of Zionism that they've magaged to create a one person one vote democracy